I'm Melbourne.
Good morning, good morning all.
Good, good morning, good morning. Hey, well, I think we have everyone here if everyone's ready, we'll go ahead and get started.
Okay.
And this meeting is being recorded. Today is 21 April 2026, and we're here for a pre hearing conference in docket number 20 four-00044 in ray petition of Limestone Water Utility operating Company LLC to.
Increased charges fees, and rates and for approval of a general rate increase and consolidated rates phase two rate implementation. I'm Monica Smith at Ashford, the administrative judge in this matter. Will the parties please introduce yourselves for the record? Starting with limestone.
Melbourne along with butlet snow, for himstone.
John dollar Hide with butter Snow for Limestone.
And the consumer advocate? I'm sorry, I didn't know if.
I was gonna identify himself. Karen Stecosky with the consumer advocate and with me are Shelina also council, and then Rosie and.
Thank you.
Go ahead. I was gonna say this is Paul Davidson. My firm represents the river Rest Homeowners Association.
Okay, thank you Paul. And, and you're just listening in to the to the pre hearing conference.
Yes, that's correct.
This pre hearing conference was noticed on 20 April and is being held to discuss the procedure for the hearing on the merits to be held during the 28 April 2026 commission conference. Before we discuss the hearing procedure, are there any pre hearing issues that need to be addressed?
I have two. This is Karen's Tonoski. The 1st is mr. Patel and requested that he'd be listed as someone who'd like to make a comment at the public hearing next week, but he'll be my phone. He had a concern because you know he he worked during the day so but he's gonna be listening in and he'd like to make his comment, but he was concerned.
If he happens to have to go into another meeting, and his name gets called and he mrs. it, is there a chance for him when he returns to at some point direct his comments to the commission? So it's cause he's not sure when he'll be called.
Let's just put a pin in that. We're gonna discuss that in the public comment in just a second. So let's just put a pin in that for a second. What is your other issue?
The other issue is the exhibit list.
And that's on my go ahead but that's on my list of things to discuss as well.
Yes, ok.
So, so yes, that's on my list too, ok, so as far as the procedure for the conference on the 28th, we're going to move this docket to the hill of the conference agenda, and before this docket will be called, there'll be an opportunity for general public comment.
On commission matters and after anyone who wants to speak on general commission matter matters, has done so, we may take a brief break. And then when we begin, we'll start with this agenda item.
And before we start with the hearing, we'll have an opportunity for public comment on this docket. So after members, and then after members of the public have concluded their comments, the chairman will convene the actual hearing. So during.
During this time so before we get into the actual hearing, the, we'll have an opportunity at the beginning for public comment on the, on this docket. So do you think that that will address mr. Patel's concerns?
Do what do we know? Do we have an estimate around the time that we might get to the public comments? Is it gonna be before lunch or after lunch, do you know? Possibly?
I'm pretty sure it's going to be before lunch. There's not too many other items on the agenda.
Okay.
And I don't anticipate that there's going to be a lot of people for the general public comment, and we're gonna make it clear that it's general public comment, not for this doc.
So I I'm it's going to be before lunch. Okay, I'll let him know. He says that he also might submit you, submit his his comments in written form and.
I think that would be a great idea as well to to to supplement his comments with some written comments. I think that would be a good idea.
Okay, thank you.
Okay.
Okay, so after the, the public comment for this docket, we'll start with the hearing. So opening statements for limestone about how long do you think you'll need for opening statements?
Are you, are you muted Melbourne? Melbourne, are you muted?
Yeah, it looks like you're muted now.
Technology.
We are unmute.
Put it now looks like, but we're not hearing you.
You may need to leave and come back in.
Do you think you need to, call back in or or sign back in? Melvin?
It's important.
It was it was just fine. Maybe he's calling let's see.
He might be frozen.
Well while he's trying to work through that, how long does the consumer advocate think, they will need? What attorneys will be representing the consumer advocate?
Thanks Formel and myself Karen steco.
Okay, and how long do you think you all will need for opening statements?
Well, maybe 15 min NO more you know, I don't wanna, I hope it's less than that, but I don't wanna, you know.
Myself short.
Okay.
And certainly whatever we'd like the equivalent of whatever the other side's getting.
Okay. Melbourne?
Can you hear me now? Yes yes. Yes. Sorry, I don't know what happened.
Okay, I know cause you were just fine.
Yep, I wouldn't think if I will I'm willing to, I think since this is phase two, I would think 5 min, but if the consumer advocate must have a longer opening then I'll need to probably have a longer open.
Okay, I don't know if you just heard, I'm sorry and and I didn't know if you were with this or not. I'm sorry. The consumer advocate, I asked, I asked which attorneys would be representing the consumer advocate and they said that Karen and Vancewood and Vance.
Said about 15 min for his opening he he or Vance you can correct me if i'm wrong he he he thought he didn't want to cut himself shortly he may not need.
All of 15, but just I guess to be on the safe side.
Yeah, and it's my understanding that the, you know, this is the company's case, and so they'll go 1st with their opening, right? Okay.
Yes, I I I just, I was just trying to wait until Melbourne I just continued while Melbourne was trying to get his microphone straight. Yes, the company will, will go 1st.
Okay, yeah, because I, you know, I, I will have something prepared, but you know how it is if they say something I need to respond to and add, you know, that may change a little, but I think I can be under 15 min.
Okay. Melbourne.
Yes, then I think you probably need to set 15 min if you're gonna allow 15 min for the consumer advocate, seems a bit winky, but I won't quibble over that. Maybe this, this, maybe a question here is, the the phase two issues.
Is implementation on the phase two pursuant to the commission's order, and then how that's done. I I assume that the issues phase two are relegated to that.
That's my understanding that those were the issues being considered at this time.
On the order. Into rabbit's position is that the commission did not set rates for commercial customers in phase one. It states so in their order. They didn't have sufficient information to set commercial rates.
So the rate design is part of phase two and that's how the consumer advocates it. It's not simply updating with new data.
I think generally, we have, we say about 10 min for, for opening. So we could say ten to 15 min. As far as the issues, I mean, I think that that's a valid statement regarding the issues for the rate design, Karen, is that your understanding?
As well Melbourne.
But I I think I would characterize it consistent with the order. I think we may have different views on on what that means, but I I don't think we're gonna resolve that today.
Okay, ok and for lifestyles witness mr. Silus, will he be at the hearing in person? So let's let's just clarify. So for opening statements, we'll say ten to 15 min for both parties. Each party will have ten to 15 min.
For opening statements for limestone's witness, Aaron Silis, will he be at the hearing in person?
Yes. Okay.
And about how long will he need for his summary?
I would think the customary 10 min would be sufficient. Okay.
Does the consumer advocate have an idea of how long it will need for cross examination of mr. Silis?
I'm hoping I can get it to 1.5 h, but I don't know if I'll go over them.
Okay. Now, in what order will the consumer advocate call its witnesses?
Hello will be the 1st witness and then Clark will be 2nd. Kidding.
Okay. And how long will, how need for his summary?
It'll both be 10 min, it might be five to ten, but, ok. We can set ten for each part.
Okay, and both witnesses will be at the hearing in person.
Yes. Okay.
And, Melbourne about how long will you need for cross examination of how Novak?
Oh, I don't know. I would think between 30 min and an hour for each of their witnesses, but that's just a rough testing.
Okay, just an estimate, ok. And I just want to clarify, will, will mr. Dollarhide be co council on this docket with you?
Yes. Okay.
Okay, do the, do the parties think that they will need to discuss confidential information during the course of the proceedings?
I think it is possible. Okay.
Well, if, if so, I would ask that if you would try to, if, if to group your confident, your questions, any questions related to confidential information, try to group those together so if we need to clear the hearing room.
We can kind of do that in a more orderly fashion and try to remember to give us a signal, let us know that you're getting ready to discuss the confidential information.
Sure. Okay.
And we're also going to need to remember to, move people, anyone that's listening in on Webex, we're also going to need to move those individuals to the lobby when we're discussing.
The confidential information. So it's going to be a much smoother process if we can group those questions together.
If, I'm not sure if the parties are gonna have any type of, audio visual needs or any, please let me know by Thursday. You can email me and let me know.
And I, I think we'll just need to, you'll just need to have it, any presentation loaded on your laptop and then we can work to get those loaded, in the hearing room. But let me know if you're gonna have those types of needs by Thursday.
And now, the exhibit list. Karen, did you want to start with this or did you want me to start?
No, I can I just say how what happened is that I filed exhibit lists and dockets before, so we did, so in this docket, Organ didn't call me to express the concern about the appropriateness of putting exhibits especially copies of them in the docket when it's, you know, not with a certainty that those exhibits will be used. Therefore they would have doc.
The documents in the exhibit that had not been used in the process. And I understand his concerns and I just, I thought we'd seek clarification from you as the hearing officer about whether we need to file those in the docket or if they just need to be exchanged between the attorneys. Since we've done it both ways in the past.
Now what what was the concern, Melbourne?
Well, and, and we write, we went over this and can you hear me?
I'm sorry. I'm sorry to interrupt you. Maybe I, maybe I need to say what I have to say, and maybe that will answer some of you all's questions. Generally the attorneys exchange the exhibits and they're they're not filed in the docket file. They're not provided to staff and they're not provided to me. They exchange the exhibits and once they are made.
Exhibits, then they will be made a part of the record, after the hearing. I mean they're made a part of record at the hearing and then they will be entered, you know, the court reporter will get a copy and.
But I I'm not sure what what happened at the last hearing and where the confusion was. Anything that's going to be used at the hearing, for a witness.
Passed out for the witness to refer to routinely, then it needs to be given to opposing council and put on the exhibit list and that's the way we we've always done it, whether it's their own testimony, whether it's in the docket file, whether it's from.
Another T POC docket, it should be on the exhibit list. If it's just something that, you're using, say you need to refresh a witness or witnesses recollection to something and you hand them a document and they just look at it and you refer and you just refer to it like that.
We wouldn't necessarily anticipate that that would be something that would be on the exhibit list. But it's something that you're re routinely referring to, having a witness look at that you passed out, that you anticipated that you're using.
In your in the presentation of your case, then that should be on the exhibit list that you provide to opposing council and, you know, whether it's their own testimony, you know, in the docket file TPOC docket, NO matter what it is and and that should be on the, on the exhibit list.
Let me ask this, this is the 1st time I've heard that and not, that doesn't mean it's the 1st time you said it but I traditionally haven't had an exhibit list. I always said anything that we used is in the official.
Docket. Yesterday I did exchange an exhibit list with a consumer advocate that did contain some items that are not in the official docket. But I have a question about having, about.
Having an exhibit list that has everything that's in the official docket because number one and number two, I don't know that if that's necessary if it's already in the official docket.
And but if it's gonna be marked as an exhibit or or attempted to be marked as an exhibit, then it would be on the exhibit list. I I haven't traditionally put things on the exhibit list that are already in the document, whether I'm gonna ask for it to be marked or not. So I I don't quite understand.
It is only Okay, go ahead.
You go ahead.
It's only if you're going to ask for it to be marked as an exhibit. It's only if you're going to to use it. You're going to pass it out.
And you're going to pass it to the witness, you're going to ref, you're going to pass it around and ask for it to be marked as an exhibit that it needs to be on the exhibit list. If you're just talking about it, referring to it.
It's in a docket file. You don't need to put that on the exhibit list, but only if you're going to ask for it to be marked as an exhibit is something that you will.
I I'll revisit and I'll let the consumer advocate know we we did provide an incident list yesterday of, things that are not in the docket. I'll take a look and see if there's any additional.
I think I should, I should list.
So what, so your understanding previously for the exhibit list was it was just items that were not in the docket file that would be used in the hearing was on the exhibit list.
Yes, that was, that was my understanding and Karen told me yesterday when we talked that in other dockets.
Hearing officers have have directed that any item, whether in the docket file or not. I haven't been a part of the case where that's been a requirement or requested because if it's already in the docket file.
There's, there's NO element of surprise. Everybody has it. The the idea behind anyway, I won't belabor the point. I just had never heard of that and.
But I'll I'll comply if that's the.
That's the request.
I mean, what is, I mean, I don't know that it.
I I thought that that's what the parties were doing. I thought that the parties were exchanging, I thought the parties were exchanging. I I mean, we don't see the exhibit list. I thought that they were exchanging anything that they were going to.
Provide at the hearing that were that anything that was going to be used at the hearing, and would be marked as an exhibit that that's what they were providing to the other party on the exhibit list whether it was in the docket file or or not. That's that's what I thought the parties had been doing.
Now, I agree with Melbourne in the past, with cases with Tennessee American water, we only provided a list of things that were outside the record and anything within the record was a possibility.
So figure it all out.
This is John. One, one point of clarification as I'm listening in is, when we've talked about documents being in the record, my understanding, just so i'm clear, is that when we say documents in the record, it's the testimony and any exhibits to the testimony, but there have been in the past, I know items that were cited by a witness in the in a footnote.
But those aren't themselves, you know, those documents or whatever that, you know, maybe another commission another jurisdiction order or a source, if those aren't provided as exhibits to the testimony and they intend to be marked as exhibits at the hearing, those also need to be on the exhibit list.
So, at the, the hearing in 2589, what was that the issue at the hearing in 2589?
I think the speaking for my speaking for Tennessee American at the time, I think the issue was, there were, there were documents.
That were being used as exhibits that were not in the official record and were not on the exhibit list.
But but it sounds it sounds like we're, it sounds like the parties at least are are in agreement that what needs to be on the exhibit list or items that are not in direct testimony and exhibits, but that in that council might use on a more than insignificant basis at the hearing.
Is, is the consumer advocate in agreement with that? Is, does that some things up.
Well, yeah, the, from one of the most recent cases and I don't think Melvin was on that docket, it came to our attention that we needed to identify what was in the record that we needed that we planned on using. And so we're fine with that. But also anything that is outside the record or democh exhibit needs to be on the list.
So say as, as someone mentioned, you know, something's in a footnote, but a copy of that document that the footnote references with the link, if it's not in the record, then we need to add that to our exhibit list. Or in the future, we just need to give the link but attach that document in the testimony that's filed.
Okay.
In in this case, the consumer advocate has provided an exhibit list that includes both matters in the docket and outside of the docket. So in light of that I will try to think of of what we might use that's inside the doc.
Docket for the limited purpose of this docket and and reciprocate, but but my understanding going forward is that the exhibit list would would unless the commission requires otherwise would require, would.
Include things that are not in the official record, or not otherwise or not accessible and so anyway, I didn't mean to select the point.
Well, I I appreciate that and as I mentioned, we, the commission has not been involved with the exhibit list. We don't see the exhibit list and I would.
M, my thoughts are we're not, it's more on the parties what they agree to. I mean what comes in and what is marked at the hearing and.
I, I think that that's probably something that we need to discuss some more. I thought that you all, I thought that it had always been if it's going to be used, if it's going to be used at at the hearing, it's going to be and it's going to be passed out and it's going to be referenced. It's going to.
Be marked as an exhibit and I thought ahead of time that you all had been putting everything on the exhibit list, whether it was in the docket file or not. That was my understanding. I'm not sure that for purposes of the exhibit list, it really, makes a difference for the commission what you all put on your exhibit list. I think probably.
So the commission, we need to discuss this some more. I'm not sure that it really, I think that that's it's more for the party's benefit as far as if exchanging the exhibit list and what's, you know, the parties agreed to as far as what's going.
To be on the exhibit list because we don't see it. But I thought that that's what you all had been ex had been putting on the exhibit list. So.
Yeah, I think we've got it resolved for this docket.
Yes, for this docket, going forward, I I think that on on our end we will discuss it. I don't know, maybe it's, I mean maybe it's a discussion, you know, on a case by case basis. The parties come to an agreement how it's going to be handled. I mean, I think maybe, you know, maybe the parties would just prefer to, you know, put documents that are not in the docket file on the exhibit list.
Yeah, it does make it easier if it's just the documents that are not on the exhibit list or any demonstrative exhibits that we just because I think we all are are comfortable with the fact that if it's in the docket filings, that's there. So it's not something we haven't seen or don't know about.
But I thought the issue in, in Tennessee of in the Tennessee American water docket that came up and, and I can I'll have to go back and look at the transcript, the issue that came up, it was something that was in the docket file, and the problem and it was stated that it wasn't on the exhibit list and I thought that that document it was stated that it wasn't on the exhibit list and it was something that was in the docket file.
I'll I'll I'll go back.
And if that were the case, then that means my hearing aids weren't working like just supposed to work, cause I would not object to anything being used as an exhibit that's in the docket file. So my recollection is that the, that the items in question were not items in the docket file.
Okay, I'll I'll go back and look, but I I I so I guess we have, I I guess we have this settled for, for this docket and going forward on our end we'll, we'll have to to revisit this going forward.
And Melbourne I'm fine with you not having to go back and try to identify what's in the docket filing. We'll just have the understanding if it's in the docket filing. We can use it. So you've already given me the things that you are outside of the docket filing, so I have that and I'm fine with that big enough.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, and I think that that brings us to.
The Closing arguments, about how long does the consumer advocate think that they will need for closing arguments?
Certainly NO more than the opening, so ten to 15, I think. Okay.
And Melbourne?
I think given the the amount of time that sumer advocate has asked in its in its opening which will be more than I think Milestone will require. It just depends on.
I would say 15 to 20 min or strike that. He said ten to 15 min. I I would think ten to 20 min dependent on the the issues that are, that are raised in the case cause I don't I don't, you know what.
Normally, I, I would have a better brass on those issues here I don't, and that's just how it is. So I would not think I would need 20 min since I don't know, I wouldn't want to be cut off when I needed more time if that makes sense. So I'm ok with the consumer advocate taking it backwards of what what Vank said in the opening, but I like low leeway in my concert.
Okay, ok. Okay. Well, I think that just about covers everything.
Monica, that's a question. It's always near and dear to my heart. Are we gonna have a break from lunch or not?
I say that because if we don't break for lunch, we can order something that we can get delivered and and eat over here at the AT office, but we had planned on doing that in a recent hearing and then we found out we weren't having lunch, so.
And they watched.
At the bending machine next to the hearing.
Kelly, do you know if we're going to break for lunch or with the way it's looking now, it looks like we may need to break for lunch. It may go for a little while. Well, let me, why don't I get back with you and email you?
Okay.
Email you because it looks like, it looks like it, it it might be a situation that we we might need to break for lunch and and come back looking at this.
Also, if you could let the hearing the court reporter, she was wondering if it was gonna be two days or not. So she's planning her schedule. I told her that we were having this meeting today and I'd let you know that she was asking if you could contact her.
Oh, ok, ok, ok, we'll do that.
Because she knows the schedule Tuesday and Wednesday and she just didn't know if it was gonna go over to Wednesday.
Okay, I I don't think that we'll need to go to Wednesday, but, but I think we may definitely need to break for lunch or everybody will be hangry. That's not a good thing.
Because there's not gonna be cake or cut cakes or chips in the.
No, NO. No, not, not this time that I know of. Okay, but let let me check on that and I will, and I will get back with you and I'll email you back. Okay. Okay, well that's all that I have. And thank you all I'll see you too.
Staying. Thank you. Bye bye.
Thank you.